Q. With what type of cartridge was your Undercover revolver loaded at the time and date we're talking about?

A. Standard Remington.38 Special cartridges, with a 158-grain round nose lead bullet.

Q. Where did you get that ammunition?

A: It was issued to me.

Q. It is the standard ammunition prescribed by regulation for the Undercover revolver?

A. So far as I know, for both of them. The Military and Police and the Undercover.

Q. What were your specific orders in regard to Mr. O'Hara?

A. Inspector Wohl told me to take Mr. O'Hara to Lieutenant Suffern.

Q. That is Lieutenant Edward J. Suffern, who is assigned to Special Operations?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Go on.

A. Inspector Wohl told me to take Mr. O'Hara to Lieutenant Suffern, and to tell him that he had authorized Mr. O'Hara to accompany Lieutenant Suffern during the arrest, but that Mr. O'Hara was not to enter the building where Stevens was until he had been arrested.

Q. Who is Stevens?

A. Charles David Stevens. Also known as Abu Ben Mohammed. A warrant had been issued for his arrest in connection with an armed robbery and murder at Goldblatt's furniture store.

Q. Were you charged with serving this warrant?

A. No. It was to be served by a Homicide detective, backed up by men under Lieutenant Suffern.

Q. You took Mr. O'Hara to Lieutenant Suffern?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And then what happened?

A. Lieutenant Suffern said that Mr. O'Hara and myself should accompany him. When the time came, we got in his car and went with him.

Q. Where did you go with Lieutenant Suffern in his car?

A. To the alley behind Stevens's house.

Q. I now show you a map of the Frankford area of Philadelphia. Would you please mark on the map where you were taken by Lieutenant Suffern?

A. All right. (See Map marked as Attachment I.)

Q. And then what happened?

A. Mr. O'Hara got out of the car.

Q. Why, if you know, did Mr. O'Hara get out of the car?

A. He said he didn't want his camera lens to become fogged as he was afraid it might if he jumped out of the car when the arrest was made.

Q. Go on.

A. I got out of the car too.

Q. Did you have Lieutenant Suffern's permission to do so?

A. My orders were to accompany Mr. O'Hara. So I got out of the car too.

Q. What comment, if any, did Lieutenant Suffern have about either of you getting out of the car?

A. I seem to recall he told Mickey, Mr. O'Hara, to stick close to the wall.

Q. What, if anything, did you or Mr. O'Hara do at this time?

A. Mr. O'Hara wiped the lens of his camera with his handkerchief.

Q. And what, if anything, happened next?

A. I heard noise, what sounded like wood breaking, in the alley in the direction of Stevens's house. After a moment, I detected movement in the alley.

Q. Had you, at that time, drawn your weapon?

A. Not drawn it. I had taken it from my ankle holster and put it in my overcoat pocket.

Q. Your weapon, was it in sight or not?

A. No. It was not.

Q. Why did you take your weapon from its holster and put it in your pocket?

A. Because I thought I could get at it easier that way if I needed it.

Q. Then you anticipated having need of your weapon?

A. No. I was just being careful.

(Chief Inspectors Lowenstein and Coughlin became additional witnesses to the interrogation at this point.)

Q. Did Mr. O'Hara see you take your weapon from your ankle holster?

A. I don't know if he did or not.

Q. How about Lieutenant Suffern?

A. I don't know. I don't believe so.

Q. Go on.

A. Where were we?

Q. You and Mr. O'Hara were in the alley, you said. You said you detected movement.

A. Okay. I realized that what I was seeing was a man coming in my direction. So I called to him to stop.

Q. Did you identify yourself as a police officer?

A. I said, Stop. Police officer.

Q. At this time, did you recognize the person in the alley as Mr. Charles D. Stevens?

A. No.

Q. Had you, previous to this occasion, ever seen Mr. Charles D. Stevens?

A. No.

Q. Had you ever seen a photograph of Mr. Stevens and/or were you familiar with his description?

A. No.

Q. Then you did not recognize the individual coming toward you as Mr. Stevens?

A. No. But it didn't matter. It was too dark. All I saw was somebody coming down the alley.

Q. But you shot at him. Why did you shoot at him?

A. Because he had shot at me, because he had shot me. Jesus Christ!

Q. (Captain Quaire) Take it easy, Payne.

A. Yes, sir. Sorry.

Q. (Detective Kramer) Did you see any weapon in Mr. Stevens's hand?

A. Not until he was down.

Q. How did you know he, Stevens, was shooting at you?

A. He was the only one in the alley. I didn't know who it was until later. I saw flashes. I was hit.

Q. What was the response of the individual you now know to be Charles David Stevens to your order, Stop. Police officer?

A. He screamed, Get out of my way, motherfucker.

Q. Those precise words?

A. That's a direct quote. For some reason, I remember it very clearly.

Q. (Captain Quaire) Payne, spare us the sarcasm.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. (Detective Kramer)You said, screamed. That suggests pain.

A. Strike, screamed. Insert, shouted angrily.

Q. He angrily shouted, Get out of my way, motherfucker, or words to that effect. Is that what you mean to say?

A. He angrily shouted, Get out of my way, motherfucker. Those exact words.

Q. And then what happened?

A. Then he started shooting.

Q. You're sure it was Charles D. Stevens who started shooting?

A. I am sure the man in the alley started shooting. He was subsequently identified as Charles D. Stevens.

Q. And?

A. He hit me. I got my gun out and started shooting back at him.

Q. Until he shot at you, your pistol was out of sight, in your overcoat pocket. Is that what you're telling me?

A. Right.

Q. How many times did you fire your weapon?

A. Four times.

Q. You're sure?

A. I'm sure.

Q. Was there any indication that any of your bullets struck Mr. Stevens?

A. Yes. He went down. Somebody, I don't remember who, subsequently told me I had hit him twice.

Q. By, went down, do you mean he fell down in the alley?

A. Yes.

Q. What, if anything, did you then do?

A. I went to him to make sure he was down.

Q. You have stated you were wounded. Where were you wounded?

A. In the forehead and left calf.

Q. Since you were wounded, how did you manage, as you said you did, to go to Mr. Stevens?

A. I don't know. Hobbled over, I suppose.

Q. Hobbled? What do you mean by, hobbled?

A. When I was shot, I fell down, fell against a wall, and then fell down. I had trouble getting to my feet. I was, sort of, on all fours.

Q. Sort of on all fours?

A. Yes, sort of on all fours. I finally got to my feet and went to the man I had shot.

Q. What did you do when you reached Mr. Stevens?

A. I stepped on his gun.

Q. What type of weapon was this? Could you identify it?

A. It looked to me like an Army Colt.45 automatic, the Army service pistol.

Q. But you're not sure?

A. I didn't closely examine it.

Q. Why not?

A. I was otherwise occupied, for Christ's sake.

Q. (Captain Quaire) Watch it, Payne.

Q. (Detective Kramer) Was Stevens holding the weapon when you stepped on it?

A. No. He had dropped it, and it was half buried in the snow. I stepped on it to make sure he couldn't pick it up.

Q. Did you see him drop it?

A. No.

Q. Then how do you know the pistol you stepped on was dropped by Mr. Stevens?

A. Didn't you say I could stop answering questions whenever I wanted? Okay. I want to stop answering questions.